Federal Trade Commisssion, Stance on "Pyramid Schemes" Options

[lady_knight]

I took it to mean where new recruits are recruited for the specific purpose of providing income *directly*... ie. new recruit pays $5 fee that goes to pay people above them in pyramid scheme.  With ptr, new recruits don't pay anything, they don't directly provide income which is used to pay other members.  So I think it's different...
[right][snapback]2856654[/snapback][/right]

Then in cases where sites offer a sign up bonus when one joins would not be good. The upline earns a percentage of that bonus technically.

[onlooker]

That's how I saw it but wanted to clarify it. Then how exactly are we suppsoed to actually promote anything legally?
[right][snapback]2856649[/snapback][/right]

It depends on what you are promoting. A regular PTR site or product for sale you can promote.

An investment scheme of ANY nature (HYIP, bubble, matrix, ponzi, etc.) has been well defined by the law as to being illegal and thus, should not be promoted by the average person.

Let me make an important note: MLM (multi-level-marketing) is NOT illegal. Unfortunately, the above schemes all use MLM to promote but not all MLMs use the above schemes.

See the difference?

Rod

[onlooker]

I not understand I join ptr is wrong?
Or I join ptr is okay?
[right][snapback]2856659[/snapback][/right]

Join PTR = OK ;)

[lady_knight]

It depends on what you are promoting. A regular PTR site or product for sale you can promote.

An investment scheme of ANY nature (HYIP, bubble, matrix, ponzi, etc.) has been well defined by the law as to being illegal and thus, should not be promoted by the average person.

Let me make an important note: MLM (multi-level-marketing) is NOT illegal. Unfortunately, the above schemes all use MLM to promote but not all MLMs use the above schemes.

See the difference?

Rod
[right][snapback]2856663[/snapback][/right]

Yes I do see the difference. I have never promoted anything I knew was the bubble, hyip, matrix or other scammy type thing. I only promote PTR that I know to be good and search engines.

[Guest_wagdoll_*]

Having to disclose payments to members would only hurt the programs that are not reputable.

I dont think it said they have to, I think you took it out of context. It said if you make claims of what a person may earn you have to back it up with those facts. ie, join ****ptr and you may earn $100 a year with us - then you should state those things, if you dont make the claim you dont have to back it up.

See, if you arent making that representation you dont have to make the disclosure.

Make any representation in any manner, expressly or by implication, of specific earnings, profits or sales volume that have been achieved or may be achieved by participants in any marketing program or purchasers or any good or service without also clearly and prominently disclosing (1) the number of persons who earned at least the amount represented, and (2) the percentage of total participants or purchasers who earned at least the amount represented

[onlooker]

Then in cases where sites offer a sign up bonus when one joins would not be good. The upline earns a percentage of that bonus technically.
[right][snapback]2856661[/snapback][/right]

No, that would seem to be ok (but very dangerous on the owners part) because the OWNER is paying for the bonus NOT each and every member that joins.

Hmmm...looking for another analogy here....

OK, good one: "Sign up to AOL and get 60 days free service"...same thing...AOL is paying for sign up bonus NOT the member.

Take it a step further: "Refer a friend to AOL and get a free months service" (hence, the upline is getting a bonus)

Rod <~~~ always trying to find real world analogies to compare things to ;)

[Guest_wagdoll_*]

If a tree falls in the woods and no is there to hear it, does it still make a sound?

ot, I tried that on my friend, she didnt understand, so as we were standing in the garden I said 'look at that tree, turn around, then tell me if it is still there'.

She turned round and said emphatically that yes it is still there. I asked her on what basis she could know that. She told me 'I can see its reflection in the window'.

:rolleyes:

[ptrhost]

Ok, I do understand what you are saying Rod.

As for the tax part..........I wasn't as concerned with reporting for purposes of taxes as much as with those on fixed incomes.......

There have been some who actually managed to make some nice pocket change who are living on government fixed incomes and by law........they ARE supposed to report ANY extra income as it effects their benefits.

I want to see accountability of these PTR Programs as many do.......but my question is how many of those managing to pull in some extra duckies are really going to want to have to go to their government counsler of welfare, disability or social security and have those benefits reduced because of having earned online?

Also, whose to say those government programs won't then look at the members on fixed incomes and decide they no longer qualify to receive say disability because they are able to work?

I guess it shouldn't matter to me, I'm not on any type of supplemented income but if we as group could pull together and get some government intervention to make PTR Programs accountable...........the other side of the coin is..........for some........that having that intervention could then have an impact on their income outside of earning online.

Let me try to clarify..........what I see are a handful of people who for all intents and purposes seem to be to try to bring any program down to it's knees.......yet some of those who are doing this while also pulling in some pocket change are living on supplemented income..........

So, it boils down to what do people really want to see done?

Me, I want accountability. However, for some members this little bit of extra income makes the difference between never getting to take their kids to Mcadees for a happy meal and getting to give them a treat once in a while.

[AutoSurfNow]

I dont think goverment would even glance in the direction of a site making less than 5K$/ month. However a Easily spotted Pyramid scheme that has 40K members and 100K$/floating cash. Is a PRIME target.

[lady_knight]

Ok, I do understand what you are saying Rod.

As for the tax part..........I wasn't as concerned with reporting for purposes of taxes as much as with those on fixed incomes.......

There have been some who actually managed to make some nice pocket change who are living on government fixed incomes and by law........they ARE supposed to report ANY extra income as it effects their benefits.

I want to see accountability of these PTR Programs as many do.......but my question is how many of those managing to pull in some extra duckies are really going to want to have to go to their government counsler of welfare, disability or social security and have those benefits reduced because of having earned online?

Also, whose to say those government programs won't then look at the members on fixed incomes and decide they no longer qualify to receive say disability because they are able to work?

I guess it shouldn't matter to me, I'm not on any type of supplemented income but if we as group could pull together and get some government intervention to make PTR Programs accountable...........the other side of the coin is..........for some........that having that intervention could then have an impact on their income outside of earning online.

Let me try to clarify..........what I see are a handful of people who for all intents and purposes seem to be to try to bring any program down to it's knees.......yet some of those who are doing this while also pulling in some pocket change are living on supplemented income..........

So, it boils down to what do people really want to see done? 

Me, I want accountability.  However, for some members this little bit of extra income makes the difference between never getting to take their kids to Mcadees for a happy meal and getting to give them a treat once in a while.
[right][snapback]2856696[/snapback][/right]

You make very valid points. I can say I do report my income. To lose ones SSI/SSDI you have to make over a certain income per month which most people never make that much in ptr. Also, in order to be disaqaulified from benefits do to work their are many things that are looked at besides actually sitting at a computer working. I have gone back to work part time at a real desk job (though I am on the raod more than at the desk) and I have lost only a part of my money benefits from SSI. The first $80 a month of income is not counted automatically as it is considered toward job expenses. After that they take $1 away from your benefits for every $2 earned income. So actually people on SSI benefit from making earned income as long as they do not go over the monthly limit one can make. Also, if a person is say blind and needs to buy softare such as JAWS to help them to do ptr or other work that can also be considered a work related expense and thus deducted from earned income.

[onlooker]

Ok, I do understand what you are saying Rod.

As for the tax part..........I wasn't as concerned with reporting for purposes of taxes as much as with those on fixed incomes.......

There have been some who actually managed to make some nice pocket change who are living on government fixed incomes and by law........they ARE supposed to report ANY extra income as it effects their benefits.

I want to see accountability of these PTR Programs as many do.......but my question is how many of those managing to pull in some extra duckies are really going to want to have to go to their government counsler of welfare, disability or social security and have those benefits reduced because of having earned online?

Also, whose to say those government programs won't then look at the members on fixed incomes and decide they no longer qualify to receive say disability because they are able to work?

I guess it shouldn't matter to me, I'm not on any type of supplemented income but if we as group could pull together and get some government intervention to make PTR Programs accountable...........the other side of the coin is..........for some........that having that intervention could then have an impact on their income outside of earning online.

Let me try to clarify..........what I see are a handful of people who for all intents and purposes seem to be to try to bring any program down to it's knees.......yet some of those who are doing this while also pulling in some pocket change are living on supplemented income..........

So, it boils down to what do people really want to see done? 

Me, I want accountability.  However, for some members this little bit of extra income makes the difference between never getting to take their kids to Mcadees for a happy meal and getting to give them a treat once in a while.
[right][snapback]2856696[/snapback][/right]

Tis a tough call, I agree.

However, back in the 1920s(?), this same debate was going on when unions bursted on to the scene. Many thought that the unions will run them out of work because some of the unscrupulous business owners will close down. In fact, that DID happen to some extent and many people suffered.

But...look what the unions DID bring to the table...better working conditions...better wages ... better safety ... better accountability on the owners part ... health plans, retirement plans, etc...

In any major change to "status quo" something gets hurt in the current setup. Hopefully, the GOOD the changes make outweigh the BAD ...

Rod

[erickln]

Arent pyramid schemes illegal in your country?  One almost brought down the entire finances of the country of Albania a few years back.  Always there are way more people who lose than win.
[right][snapback]2856656[/snapback][/right]

Correct !
Crime is illegal no matter where you are !
No one will be happy living in the place of crime !
It is a global affairs !

[Meroveus]

this is why I've always said complaining to the law will only succeed in shutting down the whole industry (at least in the US) rather than bringing anyone justice.

The US govt will NOT take the time to investigate all the PTR's out there. Much simpler to shut down the whole industry.

They've done it before.

Then again maybe it's for the best. People are opening crazier and more obvious scams by the day, and people are still joining. Maybe PTR is beyond help, and shutting it down would be for the best.

I would just feel bad for those who really can't figure out another way to earn money, and have been smart enough to join programs they actually do get paid by.

[freeandeasy]

Ok, I do understand what you are saying Rod.

As for the tax part..........I wasn't as concerned with reporting for purposes of taxes as much as with those on fixed incomes.......

There have been some who actually managed to make some nice pocket change who are living on government fixed incomes and by law........they ARE supposed to report ANY extra income as it effects their benefits.

I want to see accountability of these PTR Programs as many do.......but my question is how many of those managing to pull in some extra duckies are really going to want to have to go to their government counsler of welfare, disability or social security and have those benefits reduced because of having earned online?

Also, whose to say those government programs won't then look at the members on fixed incomes and decide they no longer qualify to receive say disability because they are able to work?

I guess it shouldn't matter to me, I'm not on any type of supplemented income but if we as group could pull together and get some government intervention to make PTR Programs accountable...........the other side of the coin is..........for some........that having that intervention could then have an impact on their income outside of earning online.

Let me try to clarify..........what I see are a handful of people who for all intents and purposes seem to be to try to bring any program down to it's knees.......yet some of those who are doing this while also pulling in some pocket change are living on supplemented income..........

So, it boils down to what do people really want to see done? 

Me, I want accountability.  However, for some members this little bit of extra income makes the difference between never getting to take their kids to Mcadees for a happy meal and getting to give them a treat once in a while.
[right][snapback]2856696[/snapback][/right]

I understand this very very well.
I myself am disabled (Rheumatoid Arthritis, Fibromyalgia, kidney problems, and visual problems). Yet I can't get disability because I fall in all the cracks. I can't get food stamps in my state since they passed a law that in order to get food stamps, you either have to be "officially" declared disabled, or you have to work at least 20 hours a week (duh!).

So at 46 years of age here I am depending on my mother, who is 70, has congestive heart failure, diabetes, and on a fixed income.

I am nowhere near making a living online! Now what happens to me if something happens to my mother and I have to pay taxes when I don't have enough to live on?

I'm only one case in a million. In the course of my volunteer work, I have come across a lot of very heart-wrenching cases. I can't imagine some of these disabled people and elderly widows needing to report a few extra dollars they can scrape up by whatever means, when they aren't even getting enough to eat as it is, and/or can't buy their medicine.

I could go on and on, but I won't write a book.

[lady_knight]

I understand this very very well.
I myself am disabled (Rheumatoid Arthritis, Fibromyalgia, kidney problems, and visual problems). Yet I can't get disability because I fall in all the cracks. I can't get food stamps in my state since they passed a law that in order to get food stamps, you either have to be "officially" declared disabled, or you have to work at least 20 hours a week (duh!).

So at 46 years of age here I am depending on my mother, who is 70, has congestive heart failure, diabetes, and on a fixed income.

I am nowhere near making a living online! Now what happens to me if something happens to my mother and I have to pay taxes when I don't have enough to live on?

I'm only one case in a million. In the course of my volunteer work, I have come across a lot of very heart-wrenching cases. I can't imagine some of these disabled people and elderly widows needing to report a few extra dollars they can scrape up by whatever means, when they aren't even getting enough to eat as it is, and/or can't buy their medicine.

I could go on and on, but I won't write a book.
[right][snapback]2856781[/snapback][/right]

Hi Free,

Have you tried contacting an independent living center near you? I have seen cases where the governemnt swore a person was not disabled but had to change theur tune when an independent living advocate got involved. It is just a suggestion. Here's a link to the CIL's nationwide:

http://www.virtualcil.net/cils/

Also here is a nifty tidbit for funding resources for different things disability related from technology devices grants to educational grants and such:

http://www.lib.msu.edu/harris23/grants/3disable.htm

Edited to add that the above is for all people not just disability resources on funding. They have things for minorities, woman and others.

This post has been edited by lady_knight: Nov 7 2004, 01:24 PM